Atheist Network

This will probably come across as goofy but I think you're both fucking awesome.


*thinks to himself* Hmm, I guess I'm still in the middle stage - sucking up to everybody on the board.

Nah... if you were sucking up, you would have thanked me for calling you an asshole

I will answer later... have to go drive three hours across a snowy and icy pass to yank someones corneas now...

Not necessarily, and for instances in which the law has directly resulted in smokers opting for busy corners/sidewalks, it doesn’t change the fact polluting the air of those immediately around you is disrespectful and intolerant of those with expectations of relatively clean-air.

Really? The majority of customers have informed you they have no problem with cheap perfume smells and cigarette residue odor?

Why the hell would they do that?



No you didn’t liar.



It would seem you're a blatant liar when claiming the majority of customers do not have a problem with it.



The majority of people here agree with me you have proven yourself to be a blatant liar.



Umm, I'm amused by you, not by myself.



That’s not how I address people, that’s how I hypothetically address assholes who stand on busy sidewalks and street corners making others reek of their dog-shit cologne.

Duh.



Right, that's what I said in page 2, now pretty please tell me exactly what the argument is, or what it is about my above statement that is bullshit.

Or you know, could just throw your hands up in the air again...



My 'argument' is bullshit because Sib has allergies to cigarette smoke?



Well yeah, with no due respect, you've made it quite clear you are an idiot.



I’ll take that as ‘I just got called out on my bullshit and have nothing left to do but cry about it’. Furthermore, stop acting like a stupid cunt and maybe you will be treated with more respect.

Oh, and I unfortunately take arrogance as a compliment love.



No one’s forcing you to reply to my posts sweetheart.



psssttt, this is the internet, I can't actually smell your smoke.

TGal, I think I've seen your line of reasoning before.



How would you feel if I happened to hit you in the face while I spin around in circles flailing, my arms as I walk? Spinning is just something I enjoy. Even if I didn't hit you hard you still would not be happy. You'd think, "What an asshole, he is so inconsiderate to other people."

My spinning has no business harming other people or interfering with their lives. So when I spin, I do it somewhere that it won't bother other people. It's pretty damn simple.


Also, people who smell like cigarette smoke smell awful. Grooming and appearance are part of my job, and I assume part of a lot of people's. If any of the people working for me come to work and smell like ass, they are sent home. Smelling awful because of cigarette smoke is no different then smelling awful because of body odor. I've even have student say to me "---- stinks like smoke." The person who did my job before I did lost her job in part, because she always came to work smelling like smoke.

That said, the reason that customers don't complain could be that you just don't smoke enough to smell like smoke, or it could be they don't want to start problems, or any number of different possibilities, but the reality is that non-smokers normally don't like the smell of smoke whether they tell you or not.

Oooh I don't know, I like the smell of cigar smoke on an older, wealthy gentleman. It's very sexy.

Cigarette smoke on certain chavs can add to their allure, for me, too.

And I'm fond of pipe smoke when it's on a man who doesn't have to unbutton his trousers when he sits down after a meal. (It reminds me of one of my first and dearest relationships.)

I suppose my problem is I associate these smells with something positive, so the smell isn't as god-awful as it is for others?

Sure, that's the meme bot stuff that TGal was on about. As a kid, the smell didn't bother me on the smokers in my family.

Ah, actually, reading WS's post, one of my uncle's was a pipe smoker, and the smell of his pipe tobacco smoke used to make me feel sick. And he was someone I rarely saw whereas the ciggy smokers in my family I saw daily/weekly, so maybe I didn't see my uncle enough to get used to the smell.

So, perhaps this meme bot stuff is complete rubbish. I simply didn't mind the smell of ciggies as a kid because I got used to the disgusting smell is all, and that's why it smells like shit nowadays because I rarely come across people smoking.

For LL and WS, I personally differentiate between cigarette smoke itself and the smell of someone who recently smoked. I find cigarette smoke to have a foul, unpleasant odor after being exhaled; but it's the smell of the person after smoking I find particularly offensive.

For example, once while working in a restaurant a chef would take frequent cigarette breaks outside in the back parking-lot, but upon returning to the kitchen, his entire presence filled the room with an unquestionable stench only capable of being produced by smoking. Nauseating really, but perhaps others find the smell more tolerable (or pleasant) for whatever reason.

Well I cannot think of any other circumstances where smokers are not respecting the law by smoking outside but I will take your word for it.

As for being disrespectful, well I am a non smoker and I still disrespectfully pollute the air of others every day. I drive a car (in busy public areas), I use electricity, I am not careful about my garbage, I go in public places suffering from coughs and sneezes and don't get me started on the effect Mexican food has on me.

My view is this. People do a lot of shit which I find icky and disgusting. However, if they put up with reciprocal ick and disgust then I will let them be.

Of course, if my behavior is harmful (as opposed to just being icky) then that's another issue....

I had to smile... well, internally smirk... a little this morning.

After a really long and fairly tense drive this morning over a snowy, windy and dark pass (I was only sideways once and only for a couple hundred feet on a steep windy mountain road... what am I complaining about!), I stopped into a fast food place to use the bathroom and grab a drink.

I was tired and cranky so it probably bothered me more than usual, but when I was in the bathroom, I could hear, mixed in with all the other noises, what sounded like an electronic game/alarm. It was the first 8 midi notes of some song... playing over and over and over and... VERY annoying. I thought it was someones phone or alarm going, but it just would not stop. I was guessing that one of the employees had something in their locker that was going off and just did not realize it.

I finished in the bathroom (yes, I washed my hands) and went out to the counter... there were a couple of 19-20 yo's and an older woman at the register talking... strike one on the annoyance meter... they were up at the counter wasting the counter persons time deciding what they want instead of figuring that out before stepping up, but ok... not that big of a deal. The sound was louder and just kept going on. At this point, it had been going on for about 5 minutes. As the guy finally gave his order and walked away to the drinks machine, I noticed that the noise was coming from his back pocket. He stood waiting for their food near a table where people were eating... they got irritated, gathered up their food and moved to another part of the building where there were three or four other tables of people. He took the electronic toy out of his pocket, pushed a button and put it back in his pocket without stopping the sound. He told the girl that he was so close to 'finishing the level'. They gathered their food and went to the table right next to all the others! They just sat their and let their sound pollution annoy an entire area filled with people! Not that it would have mattered... I could still hear it, so their was no where they could have sat that would NOT have been annoying, but still...

After a few minutes, every one of the tables packed up their stuff and left. I took my order and left as well.

The reason I tell this little tale (apart from the joy of venting), is that it really brought home to me that my objection is not to asshole smokers... it is just to assholes in general... and I guess my definition of asshole is basically anyone who shows this sort of special level of lack of consideration.

I do not think it is so much the specific acts, since sometimes things are the result of poor judgment instead of lack of consideration... like the person who misjudges the light and ends up blocking the intersection instead of the person who just says 'fuck everyone else, I am going to cram my car through the light, tough shit to everyone on the other light who are inconvenienced".

Or the person who honestly forgot to put their cell phone on vibrate upon entering the restaurant as opposed to the person with the 'I like big buts, ding a ring ding' megatone on full blast who leave it on because they think it is 'cool' and thinks 'I can have my cell phone ring on and anyone who does not like it can suck my dick."

The person who walks their dog and lets it crap on my lawn? Not automatically an asshole. Their dog craps on my lawn and they do not clean it up? Asshole.

The person who wears too much scent because they honestly have lost their sense of smell and do not realize they are gagging people is one thing... once someone comes up to them and says "I am sorry to be a pest and in case you are not aware, your perfume is really strong and is causing some people to have breathing problems", if they say "fuck you... I can wear whatever I want", they have elevated themselves to that special level ... asshole.

The smoker in the smoking area of the parking lot who's smoke blows my way when I am walking by, causing me to have an asthma attack? Not an asshole... I should avoid smoking areas better. The smoker walking down a sidewalk without any consideration for those around them? Asshole... find a smoking area. I find it interesting that someone can have the idea that someone with asthma, allergies or who just does not like the smell should just shut up, deal with it, tough titties, but that the same should not be applied to them the other way around... that no one should be able to tell them that they should just deal with it and go somewhere appropriate to smoke. How come 'tough luck' and 'deal with it' are only on the majority of people being inconvenienced by one individual instead of on the one individual causing the problem?

For me, it is not about smokers, really... it is about people doing things that they know are most likely negatively effecting (be it health or just annoyance) the majority of people around them, but saying 'tough luck... I will do what I want to do, fuck everyone else.

I would agree with all of what you said (maybe's not the smoker on the sidewalk who does not bother me... but that's just me). I would also include smug killjoys (re: UK government) in that list who have no problem spoiling the enjoyment of others without attempting to seek reasonable compromise.

Ok, but this doesn't get us anywhere nearer to a reliable estimation of the health risks to others when a smoker lights up a fag in public. What's the chances that a random smoker smoking in a busy public place is going to cause a serious problem for someone else? Is it significant enough for him to have to modify his behaviour? (If it is, then ban smoking, like I said)

You mentioned asthmatics. As you probably know, approximately 20% of asthmatics in western countries are smokers themselves, so while it is true that cigarette smoke is a universal trigger, cigarette smoke only has the potential to trigger an attack, otherwise asthmatics who smoke would be on the floor having an attack as soon as they light up. So I'm still left asking how likely is it that someone smoking in public is going to cause someone else a serious problem?



Well for me it's all about the likelihood of a smoker running across someone with asthma or allergies so serious that they are very likely going to have an attack due to one breath of that smoker's cigarette smoke. If it's highly likely then it's fair to inconvenience the smoker. If it isn't, then the smoker is being inconvenienced on the very slim off chance of causing someone else a problem - which doesn't seem reasonable to me.

(But then again, I'm in favour of the public being financially inconvenienced by having their tax money go to providing access ramps on the off chance that the few disabled people in the community might use them, so I'm probably not being consistent there. Hmm, I need to think about that.)



Are the majority really being inconvenienced, and what is the nature of their complaint? "I dislike the smell" isn't something I take all that seriously since if you're around it enough you get used to it. The health risk is another matter but I'm still wondering how significant the risk is.



I agree that there are people like that with a sense of entitlement to do as they damn well please, but then there are others who might come across as being the exact same way but the reason for it is they feel that what they are doing is no worse than the things they dislike but have to tolerate.

In a small village where there is a strong sense of community and healthy channels of communication, then people are going to be more aware of how their behaviour annoys others and will modify that behaviour, since they know any issues they have about other people's behaviour will be dealt with; reciprocity.

In large towns and cities, we're going to keep running into strangers, and the only viable form of reciprocity is to show mutual toleration for one another's annoying behaviour (within reason) which is helped by understanding why the other person is behaving that way. For instance, that boy with the annoying game - if I had heard he was on a high level then I could suck up the annoying sound because I can appreciate what it would mean to turn the game off and lose all that work. Same with smokers, I can appreciate what it is like to want a smoke when you're on your way somewhere, so I get over how unpleasant I find the smell of their smoke when they walk past me.

But behaviour that doesn't just annoy but causes health issues.... that's a different matter, and I'm up in the air on that at the moment.

(I'm bouncing back and forth in my head regarding TGal's point about memes. So....)

I could be off base here - as I'm just guessing - but I think how offensive or pleasant a person finds the smell of cigarette smoke (or the stale smoke on a smoker's clothes) could be analogous to how offensive or pleasant a person finds a sound, or more specifically, a word.

The evidence from the field of neuroscience (according to Steven Pinker, video embedded at end of this post) is that certain words we judge as being taboo words trigger an involuntary response in a region of our brain that causes us to feel alarmed or disgusted. What words (or sounds, really) are taboo are entirely of our own (or society's) creation - some people almost faint with shock if they hear the word "fuck", whereas others of us are not alarmed by someone using the word "fuck" every other word because for us it is not a taboo word.

So perhaps many of us find the fag odour to be so offensive we find it nauseating because smoking has become such a social taboo, where in the past (1970s) non-smokers generally found it to be merely unattractive and moderately unpleasant, because back then it was a social norm, not the social taboo it is close to becoming these days.








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That's it for me. While smokers may not be considerate of the behavior of others as long as they don't expect consideration in return (as a right) then fine by me. After all I am inconsiderate of the effect of calling people idiots or talking to them in a way that can be perceived as undermining. That said, I would love people to be able to work out a compromise (so smokers can enjoy their habit and socialize at the same time). I find the "myeh, myeh, myeh, myeh" brigade an inconsiderate bunch too (the ones that refuse to compromise), they irritate me more than anything else to be frank...

Yep - compromise. But then, what's the practical solution that can lead to a fair compromise?

Running a hypothetical AN meet in my head, I have TGal leaving the room every half hour or hour (depending how often he needs his fix) out of consideration for Sib's asthma, which is fair, but even when he comes back, his smell will cause Lennon to feel nauseous.

Perhaps the only solution is to get everyone to quit, and in the mean time, put up with the temporary social inconveniences caused by government smoking bans designed to get people to quit.

Smoking is steadily declining in the UK, with the rate of smokers estimated to be as low as 1 in 10 by, I think, 2020, according to Government projections.

My compromise would be to get rid of the smoking ban in pubs and bars that do not serve food. Get the smokers off the streets...

Make it up to the establishment in question as to whether smoking is banned.

What about publicly-owned venues, though? What would be the fair compromise?

Just for the record, I live with a smoker. he does not like the smell of smoke on his clothing, etc. either and so chooses, on his own, to smoke outside. He goes outside several times a day, makes sure to close the house windows when he goes out, if we are both outside, he takes care to stand downwind of me. He stands outside for a while to air off, washes his hands when he comes in, brushes his teeth and uses mouthwash.

I take double doses of antihistamine, make sure I have inhalers available and sniff a lot.

He has the greater burden of compromise, but it seems to mostly work out.

I wonder, Rob, my darling; would you favour a different compromise if your friends were not smokers who were having to keep nipping outside to smoke, spoiling your fun each time they do, but were instead asthmatics who couldn't even come clubbing with you AT ALL because of other people smoking?

Smoking is an addiction but ultimately IT IS a choice: but asthma ISN'T. With the smoking ban, smoking puts smokers out in the cold for five minutes at a time; without the ban, asthma keeps asthmatics outside of smoky bars and social clubs completely.

Most clubs are still doing a roaring trade, so any argument against the smoking ban that draws on pubs and clubs closing down in the north of England (allegedly) because of the smoking ban fails to account for all the clubs (particularly clubs in the centre of towns and cities) and restaurants that are doing well despite the ban.

Pubs and clubs regularly closed down prior to the introduction of the smoking ban; and those pubs that have closed because their regulars now choose to smoke at home instead, with a four-pack from the 'offy', are worth* losing in favour of all the asthmatics who can now socialize with friends in pubs and restaurants free from the worry of having their night spoiled by an asthma attack, or the worry of having one.


* worth it when its value is weighed in terms of social justice



Scotland: Smoking Bans Should Be Extended

I do like Sib's idea of outdoor smoking zones which asthmatics can then choose to avoid; just like they have at Disney World!

Oh my!

That shows a HUGE amount of love... for cigarettes! (and for you, of course, dear Sib.)